What is a muscle car nowadays?

"Van Man, rocks the Man Van" (jacoboconnell) 04/22/2016 at 14:57 • Filed to: None

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The new car market aims to please a variety of people and move forwards with new technologies, but has that undermined one of the auto industry’s favorite segments? Ask any non enthusiast to name a muscle car and they’ll undoubtedly mention the Mustang or Camaro. Some car enthusiasts might claim those have gone too far from their roots and aren’t true muscle cars anymore. Pedants will say the Mustang was never a muscle car and has always been pony car. The proliferation of new characteristics into old favorites has warped what we may define as a “muscle car.”

The Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of a muscle car is “any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines made for high-performance driving.” However, newer models have completely blurred the lines of what is and isn’t considered a muscle car. Cars like the Pontiac GTO, Plymouth Superbird, and the original Dodge Charger are all unapologetic muscle cars, characterized by their 2 door coupe bodies, big V8s, and American manufacturer. Today, people might consider cars like the Dodge Charger (now a sedan), BMW M4, and Ford Mustang Ecoboost muscle car because of their heritage as muscle cars or focus on cruising and straight line speed. So what’s what?

Let’s add another wrinkle to this question: pony cars. Pony cars are “an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image” (according to Wikipedia), and the most notable example of which is the Ford Mustang. But the Mustang also fits the definition of a muscle car. Other notable pony cars are the Plymouth Barracuda and Chevy Camaro, but these are also generally considered to be muscle cars. The general difference between them is this: pony cars look fast, while muscle cars are fast. Can they overlap? Of course. Can some cars be more of one than the other? Sure.

Perhaps the biggest dispute amongst enthusiasts when it comes to whether something is a muscle car or not is cylinder count. Many people will claim that something is not a muscle car unless it has a big V8. The most notable examples of this are all of the new V6 and even turbo 4 cylinder “muscle” cars. A V8 isn’t explicitly stated in the definition of a muscle car, but it’s a very important characteristic that is a big part of the character of a muscle car. Cars like the Ecoboost Ford Mustang fit the definition of a muscle car but lack a V8. So Ecoboost Mustang is technically a muscle car, but you could make the argument that it’s not a “true” muscle car by virtue of its 4 cylinder engine. The same goes for other muscle cars with less than 8 cylinders.

You might notice one commonality between the definitions of pony car and muscle car: “American”. Are muscle cars limited exclusively to the United States? Short answer: yes. Long answer: mostly. European or Japanese automakers could make muscle cars, but naturally aspirated V8, rear wheel drive, manual sports coupes aren’t all too common from overseas automakers. So cars like the BMW M4 could technically fit the definition of a muscle car aside from being American, but that car has priorities that are totally different from a comparably priced Dodge Challenger Hellcat. As a result, European and Japanese cars generally aren’t considered to be muscle cars, but they could be if they truly wanted to.

Another very debatable aspect of muscle cars is the number of doors. Most muscle cars are 2 door coupes, but now we have cars like the Chevy SS and Dodge Charger that are very similar to the Camaro and Challenger, respectively, with the exception of having 4 doors. If anything about the definition of a muscle should be changed, it is the notion that they must have 2 doors. Why can’t people with kids have fun? The SS and Charger both offer extremely powerful V8s and muscular good looks with the performance to match. There’s absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t be considered muscle cars.

A common muscle car stereotype is that they can’t handle. Does that mean that some cars, like the recent Camaro and Mustang, have graduated from the status as muscle cars to full-fledged sports cars? The Corvette is clearly a sports car, with its world-class handling and 2-seat fastback body. Same goes for the Dodge Viper. The Camaro and Mustang make interesting cases for being sports cars, especially the 4 and 6 cylinder variants. They have many characteristics of common sports cars like the Subaru BRZ and Mazda Miata. However, I would be very hesitant to call them sports cars, if for no other reason than their respective heritages as muscle and pony cars.

The Ford Mustang, Chevrolet Camaro, and Dodge Challenger (as well as Chevy SS and Dodge Charger) sold today are all muscle cars by definition. Yes, some have more muscle car characteristics than others. But that doesn’t change the fact that they should all be considered muscle cars.

djmt1 > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:01

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What does this count as?

HammerheadFistpunch > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:03

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V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:05

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I consider my S600 a luxury Muscle car of sorts. When it was built, it would monster most everything from Modena in a straight line. But I don’t find the C4+ corvette a muscle car.

Slant6 > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:06

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Hold up. Mustang is a pony car, not a muscle car. Same with Camero. Big difference.

Not muscle cars.

RallyWrench > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:07

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I think the argument could be made that short-cab V8 pickups come closest to capturing the original muscle car spirit in the modern era. Simple, 2 door, 2wd, solid rear axle, big engine burnout machines, good for surprising people at stoplights.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:08

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Basically anything that’s front engined, rear wheel drive, and suited more for straight line speed than handling.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > djmt1 04/22/2016 at 15:08

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Ugly.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 04/22/2016 at 15:09

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Yup. I would add 4 seats in there too. Two-seaters aren’t muscle cars.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 04/22/2016 at 15:11

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I don’t think that matters. Cobra? AMX? Both two seats.

Urambo Tauro > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:11

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Instead of asking which cars could be defined as muscle cars, how about looking at it from the other way around? As in, “which cars are defined by their muscle?”

Hellcats easily fall into this territory. It’s not that they can’t handle, but the raw power just overshadows everything else about the car. Older traditional muscle cars share a similar reputation.

I won’t say that a muscle car has to have a V8, though. It’s just not relevant, especially when you look at the amount of power that can be squeezed out of small modern engines.

If you want to narrow things down and pinpoint a by-the-numbers definition for “muscle car”, a power-to-weight ratio might be a good place to start.

djmt1 > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 04/22/2016 at 15:12

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Not a fan of predator faces? How about this then.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:12

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There are those who try to limit muscle cars only to midsize, and to that I say GTFO. Sure a Galaxie 500XL two-door with a 427 isn’t a muscle car. SUUUUUUUUURE. Dart GTS - not a muscle car. RIIIIIIIGHT. I’m even skeptical of the limit to two-door, though I understand why it’s a thing. My own definition tends to be preponderance of features - comparative lack of frills, based on a less competitive (non-sportscar) platform, V8 with some performance intent, two doors limited use back seat, marketing, focus on the straight line, and typically American or American derived. By this definition an MGB GTV8 is muscle-ish, and I’m okay with that.

RockRam > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:12

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Anything that goes BRAAAAP

Blondude > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:14

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FR, V8, designed with straight line speed in mind (but that doesn’t mean it can’t corner)

Anyone who says they have to be American is wrong because Australia and Germany exist.

bob and john > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:19

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no, the old M3 MIGHT have been ab muscle car.

new M4 has a 6 cylinder and not american.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Slant6 04/22/2016 at 15:20

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Mustangs and Camaros are midsize coupes now. The idea of trenchantly defining each downward based on size and the weakest members of the model lineup was old and poorly formulated in the eighties, let alone now. A secretary six does not an un-muscle-car make any more than a slant six made all Barracudas invalid as muscle cars. I realize it’s tradition, but in this case, tradition is wrong - not all pony cars are muscle cars, but not all pony cars aren’t either.

Blondude > Slant6 04/22/2016 at 15:21

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Yeah

Muscle Car - Charger, Chevelle, Torino, GTO, Road Runner

Pony Car - Challenger, Camaro, Mustang, Firebird, Barracuda

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches 04/22/2016 at 15:23

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The S600 has a weak claim on musclecarity due to the presence of luxury features and a non-American origin and aesthetic - but it’s certainly *like* a muscle car. Think of why you normally wouldn’t consider a 60s Thunderbird a muscle car but it arguably is kind of one - it has a purpose-built body and platform and a set of luxury features, while format-wise not being that different than a Challenger. The C4 is a sports car with a purpose-built body, which is a distinction in class, one could argue.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 04/22/2016 at 15:28

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AMX blurs the line but the Cobra is a sports car. Just a sports car with a V8.

DoYouEvenShift > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:29

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dogisbadob > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:29

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Every new car is a muscle car now, except perhaps the Mirage. High power and big displacement and/or turbos in even the smallest cars.

Every new car is a luxury car now, with all the tech and shit, plus the fact that people can’t afford new cars anymore.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Blondude 04/22/2016 at 15:30

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My tendency is to discount the traditions of which badges are which, due to the horrible mess that platform inconsistencies bring. A ‘72 big Mustang is all of ten inches shorter than a first-gen Roadrunner and is actually heavier, as just one example.

Blondude > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 04/22/2016 at 15:31

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The Cobra is as much a muscle car as the Corvette and Viper, i.e. it isn’t one. It’s just an American sportscar.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > Blondude 04/22/2016 at 15:31

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*British.

Ok, that makes sense then.

Blondude > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 04/22/2016 at 15:35

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Unless the VIN has a COB or COX prefix it’s an American car through and through.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Urambo Tauro 04/22/2016 at 15:37

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Counterargument: while a V8 is no longer relevant from a perspective of power per se, the “flavor” of a V8 is an important factor. The auto’s physical size and shape qualities imposed by a V8 option, the sound of a V8, the torque characteristics, the weight characteristics from having a big ol’ lump... I won’t say that a muscle car has to have a V8, but it sure helps you know it’s one when it’s there.

TheJWT > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:39

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There are none. Everything is either too expensive or too good.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > Blondude 04/22/2016 at 15:41

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But the Ace is British. Being manufactured in the US doesn’t make it american.

Die-Trying > djmt1 04/22/2016 at 15:42

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touring car

Justin Hughes > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:47

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I’d say the latest versions of the Mustang and Camaro have graduated to sports car status. They’re both good all around performers, including when the road isn’t straight. I was very impressed when I drove a Mustang EcoBoost on rally stages . I haven’t gotten my hands on a new Camaro yet, but my understanding is that the handling is even better than the Mustang, which is no slouch.

A modern muscle car can have four doors, I think. The Charger is in. I might even include the Crown Vic, especially in cop car form. (I owned one, so I’m biased.) I wonder if the Chevy SS is too refined to be a muscle car, though?

It’s complicated.

JGrabowMSt > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 15:52

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Anything sold with a 5.7L or larger V8 engine from an American brand as a performance vehicle today is a modern Muscle Car.

Blondude > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 04/22/2016 at 16:13

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Shelby did more than just drop a V8 in an Ace. The headlights, taillights (on the early cars), some interior pieces, and windshield are the only parts that are directly interchangeable. The chassis’ were significantly altered to be more rigid and to fit the V8 and by the end of production the Cobras had completely different steering, braking, and suspension components than even the early Cobras.

Additionally, I don’t see anyone calling the Australian Falcons American cars.

American car:

Australian car:

Besides, isn’t taking something British and making it better literally what America was founded on?

Side note: The AC Cobra is a thing, it’s just not what most people think it is. It was a product of AC, Autokraft, and Ford getting together without Shelby’s involvement back in the 80's to create what was basically a continuation of the Cobras. They used the original 427's chassis and suspension tooling, but a lot of other aspects are different. The most noticeable is the fact that the nose is a couple inches longer on the AC.

Well, that came off more like a rant than I intended it too...

V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/22/2016 at 16:41

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I was going for the “normal car with an Atom bomb for a motor” style of muscle car(think Impala SS 409)

My bird IS the word > Van Man, rocks the Man Van 04/22/2016 at 17:06

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Many points:

People say muscle cars can’t handle. Except for the fact that many of them could and were used for racing. It was the fullsize boat style cars (dodge charger, ford gran torino, chevrolet chevelle) that were too heavy to handle. Small (pony) cars (mustang, camaro, cuda, ect) drove just fine. I think the thought is that since most of america is flat as a pancake and really doesn’t have corners, handling is not a priority

I think the dichotomy between foreign and domestic cars comes down to engine build. Older american V8's emphasized low end torque versus high revving power. with more modern engines, this is becoming less of a gap. My firebird makes peak torque at 2200 rpm for instance.

As far as door count, I would say that this is a grey area. Nobody makes a true fullsize coupe anymore that can comfortably sit 4 (ala dodge charger). They don’t sell. So I am willing to forgive ( if not necessarily desire) a four door car.

If anything, I think “muscle car” is a styling thing, a build philosophy. a car designed to seat four. Be usable, fast and cheap first, handle second.

all muscle cars are sports cars, but not all sports cars are muscle cars. sports cars is an extremely broad category.

Nice write up though.